Kullanıcı Adı: Sürekli Bağlı Kal
Şifre:

0 Üye ve 1 Ziyaretçi konuyu incelemekte. « önceki sonraki »
Sayfa: [1] Yazdır
Gönderen Konu: VTEC ENGINE SPECS  (Okunma Sayısı 43542 defa)
HONDA

« : Temmuz 05, 2005, 05:53:34 ÖS »


Engine Capacity Compression Bore & Stroke mm Type Torque Power
       
D15B Eco 1493cc   SOHC VTEC-E  94HP
D15B4 1493cc 9.2  Dual Carb 126Nm@4500 74kw@6300
D16Y1 1590cc  75x90   96kw@6800
D16Y5 1590cc 9.4 75x90 SOHC  88kw@6400
D16Y4 1590cc 9.4 75x90 SOHC  88kw@6400
D16Y8 1590cc   SOHC VTEC  96kw@6800
D17A2 LEV 1668cc   SOHC VTEC 155Nm 96kw@6300
D17Z1 LEV 1668cc   SOHC 150Nm 88kw@6200
B16A1 1595cc 10.2 81x77.4 DOHC VTEC 148Nm 118kw@7600
B16A2 1595cc 10.2 81x77.4 DOHC VTEC 148Nm 118kw@7600
B16B 1595cc 10.8 81x77.4 DOHC VTEC 150Nm 136kw@8400
B18B2 1834cc   DOHC 172Nm@5200 101kw@6300
B18C1 1834cc  81x87.2 DOHC VTEC 173Nm@6200 127kw@7300
B18C7 1797cc 11.1 81x87.2 DOHC VTEC 178Nm@6300 141kw@7900
B20B 1997 8.8  DOHC  94kw@5400
C30A1 2977cc   DOHC VTEC  201kw@7100
C30A4 2977cc   DOHC VTEC 284Nm 188kw@6800
C32B2 3179cc   DOHC VTEC 298Nm 206kw@7300
F20B 1955cc   DOHC VTEC  149kw
F20C1 1997cc 11  DOHC VTEC 208Nm 176kw@8300
F22Z6 2156cc 8.8  DOHC 201Nm 118kw@6000
F23A1 2259cc   SOHC VTEC  112kw
F23A4 ULEV 2259cc   SOHC VTEC  110kw
H22A1 2156cc 10 85x95 DOHC VTEC 201Nm@5000 142kw@6800
H22A2 2157cc 10 87x91 DOHC VTEC 212Nm@5300 147kw@7000
H22A4 2157cc 10 87x91 DOHC VTEC 212Nm@5300 147kw@7000
H23A1 2259cc 9.8  DOHC VTEC 209Nm@4500 118kw@5800
K20A2 1998cc 11.1  DOHC i-VTEC 192Nm@6000 147kw@7400
K20A3 1998cc   DOHC i-VTEC 191Nm@4000 118kw@6500
K20C 1998cc      
K24A3 LEV 2354cc     140kw


What is the difference between the b16as?



The first generation b16a comes stock in the following models :
EF8 CRX SIR (JDM Only)
EF9 Civic SIR (JDM Only)
DA6 Xsi Integra (JDM Only)
This engine is the 160hp/118kw versoin of the b16a and has a cable transmision.



The second generation b16a, oftern refered to as b16aII or b16a2 comes stock in the following models :
EG Civic SIR (JDM Only)*
EK Civic SIR (JDM Only)*
EK Civic VTi-R
EG2/Del Sol CRX
EM1 Civic Coupe VTi-R
DA6 Integra Xsi (JDM only)*



Those models marked with an * are the 170hp/125kw varients of the b16aII, while the others are 160hp/118kw. All second generation models use hydraulic transmition.


Differences between generation 1 and generation 2 b16as include :
-Gen1 b16a uses OBD0 ECU
-Gen2 b16a uses OBD1 (from 92-95), OBD2a from (96-98) and OBD2b from (99-00)
-Gen1 b16a has 2 Oxygen Sensors (02 Sensors)
-Gen1 b16a compression ratio is 10.2, whilst the Gen2 is 10.4



-Gen1 b16a heads will have DOHC in larger font than VTEC, whilst Gen2 has DOHC written in smaller font than VTEC


Misc. b16a facts


-The auto variant of the b16a has a lower redline and different cams, to the manual variant.
-Gen1 b16a is oftern refered to as b16a1, this is only correct if reffering to the UK/Euopean delivered b16a, which is is the 150hp variant found in the EE8 CRX and EE9 Civic.
-JDM Models do not have Generation numbers stamed on their blocks. Eg. The EG Civic SIR is equipped with a Gen2 b16a, but the block will say b16a, however the AUDM Model EK Civic VTi-R motor, which is the same designation as the JDM, will have b16a2 stamped on the block.
-Automatic Gen1 b16a has single valve springs
-Only the Integra came with automatic transmition Gen1 b16a



What do I need for a conversion?


The easiest and most popular way to make sure you have everything you will need is to buy a ½ cut. [A ½ cut is the term used when referring to buying the front of a car (ie the whole engine bay), essentially it is a car cut in ½ , hence its name]



This will consist of everything* needed for the conversion. Things absolutely nessesary to be switched include (may vary depending which base model you choose):
-Engine (Block and Head)
-Engine mounts
-Headers
-Gearbox
-Gear Linkage
-Drive Shafts
-Wiring Loom
-ECU
-Radiator Hoses



* As the b16a is an electronically fuel injected engine, if you are going to do a conversion in an originally carbureted car, such as an EG breeze or GL, you will need to purchase fuel tank, fuel pump and fuel rails from a compatible EFI model Honda (such as another EG, EK, DC2)

Other things that are not essential, but are recommended include:
-Brake upgrade (At least fronts, rears if you can)
-Master cylinder and brake booster (if brake upgrade has been done)
-Radiator
-Cluster


All the listed items are found in a ½ cut, which is the reason why they are a very popular means of conversion.


A ½ cut is not the ONLY option, so don’t give up if you cannot find one.

Parts can be sourced individually. Often there will be a motor/gearbox combo. This can be still be a just as viable option, and the rest of the parts sourced from wreckers. If OEM parts cannot be found, aftermarket is also a very practicle option.

Items such as engine mounts, shift linkages, drive shafts can be purchased aftermarket from companies such as Hasport.

ECUs can also be troubling to source if you do not aquire a ½ cut. There is an array of stand alone ECUs that can be used in place of OEM ECU

Headers are from time to time damaged in the collision of the original vehicle so new ones can be sourced. Like ECU's there is an array of local and overseas based performance headers thatcan be used in place of damaged/missing OEM ones.

NB – The above listings are general advice/recommendations and may not apply to every model.


How much will it cost?


The answer to this question will vary depending on numerous variables.
b16a ½ Cuts on range from 2000-4000 depending on generation, year, kms, condition etc.
I would recommend allowing at least 3000 for a 2nd Generation b16a ½ cut.

Installation costs range anywhere from 1000-2000, depending what your getting done (EFI conversion, Rear disc conversion etc will all amount more labour time)

Doing the swap yourself is also a very popular option. It is timely, tedious, but on the whole not the hardest mechanical procedure. If you have some knowledgable help and a small budget, doing it yourself can defiantly cut costs.

If you are unable to source a ½ cut, aftermarket parts can be a little pricey. A lot of these companies are situated in the US, so shipping must be taken into account too when budgeting.

Where can I source a ½ cut?


Wreckers – Ozhonda Wreckers List - There is a good selection of Honda wreckers that should have or can source a ½ cut for you. Also try other wreckers (doesn’t have to be Honda specific) that you know of not listed here.

Importers – Various importers would have or can source ½ cuts.

http://www.hasport.com - Does not have ½ cuts, but list various b-series swap parts; such as Mounts, Wiring, Headers, Shift linkages etc..

What else?


If you are going to do the swap yourself, or even if your going to get someone professional to do it, it is very important that you (or they):
-Change Engine Oil
-Change Transition Oil
-Change Radiator Coolant
-Change Brake Fluid
-Change Brake Pads
-Change Timing belt (if applicable)
-Air-Con (if applicable) and Power steering belts
-Replace Filters (air/oil/fuel)
-Clutch inspection and replacement if necessary
-Clean items

After you source your ½ cut (or even just motor), you must realize that if this is an imported model, it would have been sitting around in Japan for a long time, in the wreckers, then the shipping yard, then being shipped here, then sitting locally for ‘x’ amount of time. This would mean that the fluids have been stagnant for ‘x’ weeks/months and need to be changed.

As, in many cases, you do not know the service history of the car, it is best to just start fresh, so you yourself can log the service history as well as not risking any damage to your new setup. While the engine is out, it is a lot easier to replace items such as your timing and power steering belts, which may be on their last legs or damaged from the freight movement. It will also work out to be cheaper (labour wise) changing them now than later on once the engine is in.

Because the imported setup has been through various locations, climates and conditions, dust/dirt/water may have entered places you do not want it. So it is very important to clean things, such as Throttle Body, Intake Manifold, Idle Control Valve, some electrical components.

Even if your newly purchased setup isn’t imported and is a local model, it is still very likely that it has been sitting at Tow-Yard, Insurance Assement Yards, Auction Yards and/or the Wreckers for a elongated period of time.



Legallity


Before jumping straight into your swap, there are a couple of things to note.
In Australia it is illegal to fit an engine that is older than the chassis


Ie. The Motor must be same year of manufacture (or newer) as your chassis.
In Victoria (not sure about other states) an engineers certificate is required for registration if you increase displacement by more than 10%.


Courtesy - SiR JDM [OzHonda]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuning - the basic philosophy ?
Tuning is more of an art rather than a knowledge. You have to be able to feel the cars sweet spots and push it towards them. See our hondas are high sprung. They love to rev and when you do rev them hard they love it.

There are many things to do to gain speed, horsepower and torque. To get horsepower you need to give an engine more fuel and air (make sure to ephesise the AND, only giving it more of one will cause you problems and no horsepower gains). The more you can get into the engine the stronger it will be. Good ways to show this are turbos and supers. They literally cram air down the engines throat. Then that is matched up with more fuel and sometimes a hotter ignition. Once you have added more of these then you get into tuning. The magic word today is stoichometric or known as a ratio of 14.7 parts air and 1 part fuel (this varys with different fuels). This is the fuel sweet spot and the closer you can get to it the more efficiant it is at using it. This can be done by adjusting one or more of the following (map sensor, fuel pressure regulator, and injector pulse to name a few). After that compression, ignition timing and advance curve, fuel octane (RON) and altitude are factored in to set them to the magical number.

A good starting point has always been a stronger intake. Now lets think how this can get you more horsepower. First off your stock intake is restrictive and the filter flows lower CFMs (cubic feet per minute). It also causes large amounts of turbulance which slows the flow rate. With a intake you get a direct flow to the engine. Also because of the aftermarket filters on the market, they can flow better and faster (higher cfms) with alot less turbulance. This all adds to to much higher volumes of air being sucked into the engine. Then from there your MAP sensor and O2 sensor determine the correct injector pulse to use to keep it as close to the factory specs and stoichometric. Now a cold air intake has one up on the normal intake. As air gets colder its oxogen count rises because of the well known fact "colder air is denser air". So to put simply you can fit more air into the engine with the same intake and get greater performance. A cold air intake sucks air from the much colder air outside the confines of the engine bay as where the short ram or stock intakes suck air from the hot underhood air.

Now an exhaust, why get an exhaust when it doesnt give you much HP? Simple, you can adjust the amount of backpressure applied to the engine and help it breath better. Cant get more simple than that. Imagine a straw and your blowing threw it. It flows pretty freely but if you were to pinch it a little it would be much harder to expell the used gasses from your body (carbon dioxide), same is true with engines but it works slightly different. Backpressure is that resistance in the exhaust, but the less you have the more drastic your torque will fall (torque is what pulls you up a hill, tow or for a quicker responce at low RPM). When you remove backpressure via a freeier flow exhaust you loose torque which is your low end power. However, it gets those expelled gasses out of the cylinder to allow for more air and fuel to enter giving you better horsepower numbers. But why have backpressure? Simple, with no backpressure our cars would be gutless at low end and to most thats your city driving. Now note that there is a difference between forced restrictive exhausts to normal exhausts. What honda wanted to do is create a fairly good car throughout the power band but still emphisize its high RPM band. If you increase backpressure then your HP will fall and torque will replace it. Its kinda like a 2 sided scale. But most of us dont mind the loss of torque but want that high end power where we normally keep it.

Courtesy - Jake Zeppa
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Will Integra Type R cams go into a B16A engine out of a Civic VTIR
The ITR cams will work in the b16a VTiR so yes it will work fine. There is a big difference in profiles listed below for a comparison. These equal out to better air flow, and can also equal better mixture and atomazation (meaning a more efficiant burn, key work "hp"). The numbers are as follows as far as the 3 cams are concerned:

b16a - Civic VTiR
b18c - Integra Type R
b16b - Civic Type R



Intake/Exhaust Valve Size
b16a............ 33mm/28mm
b18c............ 33mm/28mm
b16b............ 33mm/28mm



Intake Opening (BTDC)
b16a........... 15
b18c........... 15
b16b........... 18



Intake Closing
b16a............ 40
b18c............ 45
b16b............ 45



Intake Duration
b16a............ 240
b18c............ 240
b16b............ 243



Exhaust Opening
b16a......... 40
b18c......... 45
b16b......... 45



Exhaust Closing (ATDC)
b16a............ 7
b18c............ 10
b16b............ 10



Exhaust Duration
b16a.............. 227
b18c.............. 235
b16b.............. 235



Overlap
b16a............ 22
b18c............ 25
b16b............ 28



Intake Valve Lift (mm)
b16a.......... 10.7 (.421")
b18c.......... 11.5 (.453")
b16b.......... 11.5 (.453")



Exhaust Valve Lift (mm)
b16a.......... 9.4 (.370")
b18c.......... 10.5 (.413")
b16b.......... 10.5 (.413")



You will gain much more overlap (this is good for extracting all the possible air/fuel from the engine for better combustion). Now i also included the b16b (CTR cams as well so you can compare them closly to the ITR cams and the stock B16A cams. You will also notice the ITR and CTR exhaust cams are identical. If you are on a budget when purchasing these, get the cheaper ITR exhaust and the superior CTR intake cam separately if you can. But still the Intake and exhaust bumpsticks off a ITR will greatly improve torque, hp, and the whole feel for the car. Also much better throttle responce.



Now for things to add to get better power out of them.
Well since the ITR has factory port and polish, you might want to think of this as well. It will greatly increase your flow and flow speed (CFMs). Also if you have the cash a ITR intake manifold is a very good positive. It has straighter and thicker runners than the b16a so you get better flow. Also, the ITR also has a wider throttle body so you could also be going good there. Other things to think about are titanium valve retainers (there lighter so in high rev situations they dont weight the valve down), if you increase the valve size then new valve guides are in order as well. The good ones can disapate heat better than others.



The last thing really is valve springs. Valve springs are what close your valves as well as keep the closed. Any that are familiar with engines you will know valve float. This is one of the most power robbing things as far as the head. For those of you that dont know what it is. When your engines running your cams lobes push on the rockers that push the valve down. At low RPMS it follows the profile but at faster RPMS the cam moves rather quickly and when the valve goes to close it will slam the head and bounce back open though only a smidge and sometimes twice or more. When this happens you let precious compression out as well as fuel and air. Now dont get me wrong, its only a small amount but when every drop counts this is a bad foe. Stepping up to stiffer valve springs or getting a set of dual valve springs can greatly help in this matter.



Now you can also think about cam gears. The ITR cam wasnt tuned for the b16a motor so cam gears can give you a little more to play with. Also swapping in ITR cams will work great for N/A motors and will improve turbo numbers but if you want to put a massive turbo on then you might want to get a billet grind to specs instead of a ITR or CTR cam.


What other Cams will work in the B16A..

The TODA cams have been said to improve HP greatly but in reality they will net you 10 or so HP and thats if its tuned correctly. Also is true with the JUN cams. You need to remember that cams can give you HP that wasnt there before but the thing that will greatly improve your HP numbers is AIR/FUEL. They need to be matched correctly. Adding aftermarket cams allows for more overlap (which means more air and fuel in the cumbustion chamber and less spent fuels and carbon dioxide which will net you some power), also they will improve your air flow because of duration and lift.



But again a better intake, larger intake manifold with a bored out throttle body with a port matched intake manifold with some form of Cold Air Intake and tuned with a fuel pressure regulator will give you nice numbers. Add to that cam gears to correctly time the cams in for the larger intake amount and something to reset the factory MAP sensor ratios. Then for larger power gains raise the compression to better use that larger amount of air. If you go high enough you can gain a nice 25% increase in power. But with cams, well highly unlikely by themselfs. Also a lighter flywheel will decrease your rev time for faster quarters and lighten the car to increase your HP/weight ratio. With all of this you should be able to hang with the big dogs. But this is just some facts to throw your way. Hope there helpful.



Oh and with the cam upgrade (the springs to be specific) you will be able to rev higher. As far as phisics says, the pistons can move at a unlimited speed so whats slowing them down, well the cams and the valve float. At higher revs on the factory cam system the cams get irratic the higher you go and if you go high enough the valves wont be allowed to close before they are told to open again.

Courtesy - Jake Zeppa
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
What does an LSD do and what are the differences of Mugen LSD's ?
In short, a Limited Slip Differential or LSD doesn't increase power or torque. In the real world, what this actually does is allow you to corner better a higher speeds. Mugen Honda sells after-market 1.5 and 2-way LSD for the following models:



CIVIC TYPE R(EK9) 2 way
CIVIC(EK4/EG6) 2 way
INTEGRA TYPE R(DC2) 2 way
CIVIC(EF9) CR-X(EF8) 2 way
CIVIC(EF3) CR-X(EF7) 1.5 way
NSX(NA1) MT 1.5 way


 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Who needs a reliable boost fuel pump and do you really need the extra injector ?
Well you will always need to upgrade the fuel pump as well as the injectors any time you cross over to forced induction or raise the boost threw the ceiling or replace your exhisting turbo to a larger one.


If you go for larger injectors but leave the stock fuel pump and you have greatly improved the
combustion of the car then when you are on full throttle you will get starvation. This will give you a lean mixture and scorched heads and lots of other fun stuff. Also into this equation you need to have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Without this you would have too high or too low fuel pressure. You will need to take the whole setup all hooked up to the dyno tuner and have them set your AFPR to best suite to your needs. As far as pumps, something with a big GPH number should be fine.

Courtesy - Jake Zeppa
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Logged
SuperSonic


Yer: Istanbul
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #1 : Temmuz 05, 2005, 11:07:27 ÖS »

VTI sahipleri ve swap düşünenler için gerçekten çok yararlı bilgiler

K20 için de bilgileri bekliyoruz.  Cheesy
Logged

SuperSonic --> Nighthawk Black --> Montego Blue

cemTT


Yer: Turkey
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #2 : Kasım 20, 2005, 04:05:22 ÖS »

Thanx .
Logged
SONE-R


Yaş: 41
Yer: Ankara
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #3 : Kasım 20, 2005, 10:07:48 ÖS »

B16A2 tork değeri yanlış... 153 NM@7000 rpm olacak...

Gerçi belirtilen tork değerlerinin çoğu yanlış. Mesela B16B'de 160 Nm@7500 rpm olacak...
Logged

2013 1.4 TSi Polo GTi 180 ps
Güven


Yaş: 35
Yer: İstanbul , Merter
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #4 : Kasım 21, 2005, 01:00:28 ÖS »

Thanksss
Logged

93si


Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #5 : Kasım 21, 2005, 03:21:58 ÖS »

Alıntı sahibi: "SONER-VTI"
B16A2 tork değeri yanlış... 153 NM@7000 rpm olacak...

Gerçi belirtilen tork değerlerinin çoğu yanlış. Mesela B16B'de 160 Nm@7500 rpm olacak...



ewet B16A2 1595cc 10.2 81x77.4 DOHC VTEC 148Nm 118kw@7600
d16 da tork bu kadar bildiğim kadarıyla.
Logged
ALG


Yer: EASTANBOUL
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

ÜSTÜ açılan değil VTEC açan


« Yanıtla #6 : Aralık 15, 2005, 02:31:42 ÖÖ »

faydalı bilgiler..
Logged

İmzam yaşadığım hayat ve arkamda bıraktıklarımdır, iki satırla izah edilmez !
dreamhouse


Yaş: 23
Yer: eastanbul
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

EG olsun kırmızı olsun :)


« Yanıtla #7 : Kasım 03, 2009, 01:28:55 ÖÖ »

arkadaşlar swap ne demek ? cogu konuda gecıyor ancak ben bılmıyorum bırısı acıklayabılır mı
Logged
RattleSnake


Yaş: 37
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

İbRahim TümeR


« Yanıtla #8 : Kasım 03, 2009, 01:37:41 ÖÖ »

arkadaşlar swap ne demek ? cogu konuda gecıyor ancak ben bılmıyorum bırısı acıklayabılır mı

special weapons and procedures

swap kısaca arabanın üzerindeki motor ve şanzımanın çıkarılarak daha farklı bir motor ve şanzıman takılma işlemidir
Logged



http://www.teamhondaturkey.com/forum/fotograflar/dunyadan_modifiyeli_hondalar-t12119.0.html;msg158249#msg158249
Dünyada her millet icraatina tahammül ettiği yönetimin mesuliyetine ortak sayilir" Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
dreamhouse


Yaş: 23
Yer: eastanbul
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

EG olsun kırmızı olsun :)


« Yanıtla #9 : Kasım 03, 2009, 01:40:12 ÖÖ »

arkadaşlar swap ne demek ? cogu konuda gecıyor ancak ben bılmıyorum bırısı acıklayabılır mı

special weapons and procedures

swap kısaca arabanın üzerindeki motor ve şanzımanın çıkarılarak daha farklı bir motor ve şanzıman takılma işlemidir

mesela EG kasa civiclere crx sanzuman takılmasıda bir swap mıdır
Logged
06FAT68


Yaş: 31
Yer: TRABZON
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #10 : Kasım 03, 2009, 01:42:41 ÖÖ »

d15b 94 hp benimkisi şimdi 90hp mi 94 hp mi ? Smiley
Logged

95 Civic   Ex
93 Sedan Sİ
03 Accord 2,4 Executive
RattleSnake


Yaş: 37
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

İbRahim TümeR


« Yanıtla #11 : Kasım 03, 2009, 02:15:07 ÖÖ »

arkadaşlar swap ne demek ? cogu konuda gecıyor ancak ben bılmıyorum bırısı acıklayabılır mı

special weapons and procedures

swap kısaca arabanın üzerindeki motor ve şanzımanın çıkarılarak daha farklı bir motor ve şanzıman takılma işlemidir

mesela EG kasa civiclere crx sanzuman takılmasıda bir swap mıdır

netice olarak swap sayılır
Logged



http://www.teamhondaturkey.com/forum/fotograflar/dunyadan_modifiyeli_hondalar-t12119.0.html;msg158249#msg158249
Dünyada her millet icraatina tahammül ettiği yönetimin mesuliyetine ortak sayilir" Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
dreamhouse


Yaş: 23
Yer: eastanbul
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

EG olsun kırmızı olsun :)


« Yanıtla #12 : Kasım 03, 2009, 02:17:27 ÖÖ »

tesekkur ederim bılgılerın ıcın merak edıyordum swap ne dıye Smiley
Logged
06FAT68


Yaş: 31
Yer: TRABZON
Şu Anda Sitede Değil


« Yanıtla #13 : Kasım 03, 2009, 02:22:14 ÖÖ »

dreamhouse swap aracının orjinal motor şanzuman beyin egzoz yani orjinali dışana çıktığın herşey anlamına geliyor.mesela ex motorunu çıkarttırıp şöye bi k20a 210hp komple motor şanzuman beyin akslar değiştirme işine swap deniyor.
Logged

95 Civic   Ex
93 Sedan Sİ
03 Accord 2,4 Executive
dreamhouse


Yaş: 23
Yer: eastanbul
Şu Anda Sitede Değil

EG olsun kırmızı olsun :)


« Yanıtla #14 : Kasım 03, 2009, 02:23:04 ÖÖ »

eyvallah saol anladım
Logged
Sayfa: [1] Yazdır 
« önceki sonraki »
Gitmek istediğiniz yer: